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WASTE NO POTENTIAL - EPISODE 9

Learn the Way of the Ladybug.

Taking a lesson from a carefree insect, we learn that sometimes the best way to get ahead is to slow down.

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Learn the Way of the Ladybug.

Hustle. Rise and grind. Fake it till you make it. Today’s work culture believes the only way to get ahead is to put your nose to the grindstone and maximize the hours in the day. The harder you work, the more successful you become, right?

On the flip side, burnout rates are on the rise — people’s bodies are physically revolting in a desperate attempt to tell them to rest. No one knows this better than our guest, author, and digital anthropologist, Rahaf Harfoush. Her concept of “productivity propaganda” highlights how our obsession with working harder is actually making it harder to work. After hustling with her pedal to the metal for years, her body gave out on her and forced her to step back and do something she wasn’t familiar with: slow down and listen.At Waste No Potential, we have a story of an unlikely teacher. Whenever it got busy at our old office and it felt like things were about to go off the rails, an uncanny thing recurred: a ladybug showed up. Crawling on a meeting room wall or across someone’s keyboard, the slow-moving critter made everyone pause and reflect. Being forced to take a second to breathe didn’t affect our work negatively — it improved it. It was then, in a moment of zen, we learned the way of the ladybug.

We don’t quote Ferris Bueller very often, but when we do, we say, “Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.

Highlights

  • 14:22 "When Rahaf hits the big ‘B’, burnout.”
  • 17:38 “Megumi on ‘the way of the ladybug.’"
  • 21:18 “Rahaf on our productivity culture and finding a way out of a burnt out world."

Transcript

[00:00:00] Alexandra Samuel: Have you ever felt something like this at work?

[00:00:08] Voice 1: Both physically and emotionally, anything that comes at you that causes you stress or anxiety that you can usually handle suddenly feels like it's shocking you and the world is on fire.

[00:00:20] Alexandra Samuel: It can feel like your whole life is just a cycle of work, sleep, work.

[00:00:26] Voice 2: I woke up and like, I went to the mirror. And thought, what am I doing?

[00:00:32] Alexandra Samuel: You might even get to the point where it feels like more than you can take.

[00:00:37] Voice 3: And people want things from you. They want you to be creative and you just don't have anything to give. You have nothing left.

[00:00:44] Alexandra Samuel: Do you call it quits? Do you dig deeper? Do you try to establish new boundaries?

[00:00:51] Voice 1: You desperately want to be able to manage things like you normally would, but you just don't have the capacity. And you're just living moment to moment. Kind of hoping that nothing hurts.

[00:01:02] Alexandra Samuel: Maybe you find yourself going around and around in your head trying to decide whether it's time to stay or go.

All you do know is you are burned out.

Do! Make! Build! Hustle!

It seems like there's always pressure to get more done in less and less time. That kind of work is hardly going to maximize anyone's talents. And that's exactly what we look at in this podcast: Waste No Potential. I'm your host, Alexandra Samuel. And in today's episode, we're going to dive into one of the consequences of our culture of overwork, which is our obsession with output.

We're so busy posting and influencing and thought-leadering and presenting that we sometimes lose sight of the other side of the equation: listening, learning, reflecting. So today we're going to talk about an approach that focuses on input rather than output. At Traction on Demand they call it “the way of the ladybug”.

I'll tell you why a little later. Here's what I can tell you: the way of the ladybug is a path off the hamster wheel. It's a way to get out of the trap of obsessing over output and instead take full advantage of input. And what better way to do that than by listening. So, let me introduce you to someone with a lot of insight on slowing down on the value of input and reflection.

Rahaf Harfoush, an author and a digital anthropologist.

You know, maybe you can start by telling us how you define what is a digital anthropologist.

[00:02:51] Rahaf Harfoush: So digital anthropology is the study of the interrelationship between technology and culture, how they both affect each other in different ways. So how does technology change our behaviours, shape our behaviours, and then how does our culture and the way that our societies function shape the way that we use the technology.

And it's this really fascinating back and forth between the way we live our lives with these invisible tools that are such essential parts of our daily lives these days.

[00:03:18] Alexandra Samuel: In her book, “Hustle and Float”, Rahaf digs into our obsession with being productivity workhorses. And I have to confess I'm not exactly an innocent bystander here.

An awful lot of my own writing, including my books, focuses on this magical goal we call productivity.

[00:03:38] Rahaf Harfoush: Let's start about like the general lie that is poisoning all of us. Over time we've become so obsessed with productivity and output, and we've become obsessed with quantity over quality. So we're obsessed with being busy for busy’s sake.

It's no longer about what you're achieving. It's about how late you're staying at the office or how hard you're working instead of being effective. We've internalized this idea that we are the sole drivers of our own success and that if we work hard enough, we will be successful. Period. The problem with that, in addition to it being a complete and utter lie, is that if you aren't successful it must be because you're not working hard enough.

[00:04:18] Alexandra Samuel: It took Rahaf a lot of years to reach that conclusion. And just like the rest of us, she fell victim to that jittery need to satisfy the productivity gods. But for her that trap had another layer rooted in a childhood dream.

[00:04:39] Rahaf Harfoush: I was born in Damascus, Syria, and my parents immigrated to Canada, to Toronto, in 1989. And I grew up in Canada. But when I was like eight years old, I stole a romance book off of my mom's nightstand table because I was curious and I wanted to read it. The details were irrelevant about the story. But the one thing I do remember was that the main character had this international job and she— I just remember reading that she's sitting at her desk and she's on the phone with her assistant and she's like, "I've got to go to Rome for work. And then I'm going to spend two days in London and then I'm going to end off in Berlin." That one, like, page became cemented in my brain.

And I just thought I want to go. I want to do that. I always knew that I wanted to go live and try and explore and see new things and do things.

[00:05:34] Alexandra Samuel: From there Rahaf grew up and went to the University of Western Ontario. She'd always been fascinated by technology and our changing digital world. That fascination led her to all sorts of opportunities — ones she just couldn't refuse.

[00:05:53] Rahaf Harfoush: I was in school and I met a woman, an incredible woman named Nicole Tapscott and her father was Don Tapscott, who is one of the forefront thinkers of technology in Canada today. So I'm at dinner with my friend and was chatting about technology and some of the things that I was seeing.

And as a result of that, and a couple of other interactions, got hired by Don after graduation to work at his think tank. So to be an analyst and to work on…with the research on some of the projects he was working on, primarily around how young people are using technologies. And as a part of that research project, we ended up talking to Chris Hughes who was one of the co-founders of Facebook, who at the time was working for Barack Obama on the 2008 presidential campaign.

[00:06:45] Barack Obama (During presidential campaign): “You came here because you believe in what this country can be.”

[00:06:47] Rahaf Harfoush: Chris is my age. We sort of struck up a friendship. We kept in contact and as the campaign was heating up I sent Chris an email and I said something like “What's happening down in Chicago seems amazing. I'm seeing things that I've never seen before.”

I was so excited. If you remember, there was such energy and he wrote back and he said, “Listen, if you're going to come down, just come down. We need all the help we can get.”

Me, a Canadian who doesn't have any idea about American politics, leave Toronto, leave my boyfriend, move to Chicago for four months, five months to work on the campaign.

And that was one of the instances that said “Yes!”

Chris just let me work and kind of be embedded in all the different departments of new media. And because I was a researcher at the time, I just took copious amounts of notes.

I had such a transformative experience there that a couple of weeks later I was at a party and I met a person, again didn't really know who they were, was chatting to them about my experiences, chatting to them about my research and this person turned out to be an editor.

And he said to me, “You should write a book about this.” And again, I thought, “I've never written a book before. I'm not a political expert.” Went home, thought about it said, “You know what? Why not?” Took six months wrote the entire book that ended up being my first book, which was called “Yes We Did! How Social Media Built the Obama Brand."

[00:08:17] Alexandra Samuel: That early success led to more and more paths for her. Her new book caught the attention of a professor from the Rotman School of Management. They invited her to speak to a class, but what Rahaf didn't realize it was going to be a lot bigger than a room full of twenty people.

[00:08:34] Rahaf Harfoush: So suddenly for the first time ever, I was going to be in front of 500 people.

So obviously it was just super stressed out about it. But once again was like, okay, I guess this is what's happening. You got to level up, fake it till you make it, pretend that everything's going to be fine, and pretend that your hands aren't so cold that your fingers are numb because you're absolutely petrified of being up on stage and presenting what you know.

So I did that. And then in the audience there happened to be two speaker agents. And they came up to me afterwards and they said, "Hey, how would you like to get paid to go and speak and share some of your experiences?" And after that things just kind of took off.

[00:09:17] Alexandra Samuel: Literally Rahaf's career started to take her around the world.

[00:09:22] Rahaf Harfoush: All over the US at first, Europe, and all over Argentina, all over Columbia, all over Peru. Like I was just traveling the world.

[00:09:32] Alexandra Samuel: Her openness to opportunity, her willingness to say yes to interesting jobs and invitations carried her forward, both personally and professionally. That childhood dream had finally come true. The one buried in her mom's old traveling romance novel.

[00:09:51] Rahaf Harfoush: And here I am flying business class, going to the— like getting paid to go to these cities. And I just thought if I could go back in time and tell that little girl, you know, who had the traditional immigrant story with struggle and sacrifice and, you know, wondering what the future would hold. If I could go back and tell her that that little thing she dreamed of would come true. I don't even think she would believe me.

It would blow her mind.

[00:10:18] Alexandra Samuel: It's a textbook success story. Determination, hard work, walking through each professional door as it opens before you. It's exactly how we're told to advance and grow. And you can see the upside in Rahaf's story. It led her to travel the world, write books, meet fascinating people.

But what we're not warned about when we're told to keep on climbing that ladder, there’s a downside to success too. Especially when your idea of success is defined in terms of output, in terms of productivity, in terms of what you put out into the world. Rahaf is going to share her experience of the downside of productivity culture.

But first I want to introduce Megumi Mizuno, Chief of Staff at Traction on Demand. She's someone who learned the way of the ladybug early on. In contrast to how so many of us are driven to produce and perform, Megumi's childhood was a masterclass in the value of listening and observation.

[00:11:22] Megumi Mizuno: Honestly, it started probably when I was like eight.

Maybe even younger. And I think part of it was watching my mom.

So they immigrated from Japan in their thirties, so they didn't speak much English. So my mom was very conscious of trying to get me to be the spokesperson and be as independent as possible. I was always leaned upon to have those conversations at the bank, at the passport office, at the airport, all these things.

But my mom, she was quite strict with me and I asked her, "I'm like, why are you so mean to me and you're so nice to my sister?" She's like, "You need to figure out how to do all of this. You know, give you these lessons." But I could see her observing everything to try and figure out like how to make my school lunches so that I fit in or how to celebrate Christmas, because it wasn't really a big thing in Japan.

So she was always observing and trying to figure out how to do these things, to help me have a more whole childhood. So I appreciate it because now I feel like I'm a strong human because of all the things that she taught me.

[00:12:36] Alexandra Samuel: Megumi learned that it wasn't always about being the one with the loudest voice, the one who had the next thing to say. To help her parents navigate a new country in an unfamiliar language she had to wait and listen.

That kind of listening can be an antidote, or at least a counterweight, to our culture's obsession with productivity and output. And Rahaf was about to discover why that kind of antidote is necessary. Even if you're a productivity genius traveling the world.

[00:13:11] Rahaf Harfoush: And then I got an invitation to speak at the World Economic Forum in Geneva.

So went, shared my research, and got offered a job. And so we moved to Switzerland and I joined the World Economic Forum. I became the Associate Director of a program called “The Technology Pioneers”. So I at the time was meeting with, you know, the co-founders of Twitter, and we met Mark Zuckerberg.

We met all of these people as they were coming up before they were the super tech titans they are today when they were just like the underdogs trying to get people to take their ideas seriously. I get a phone call from another friend from Toronto, one of my very good friends, Jay Goldman. And he says, "Hey. I'm working at this incredible Canadian company called Klick. They're doing some wild and fascinating things with big data. I want you to come see what we're doing because we want to pull some research around it."

Once again, I was like, “Why not?” We ended up spending two years researching how companies were using big data to motivate their teams, to build happy teams, to build productive teams.

And that ended up becoming my second book, “The Decoded Company”. And then after that I came back to France. I had a massive episode of burnout. Completely hit the wall, completely tanked. And as I was recovering—

[00:14:32] Alexandra Samuel: One second, I'm going to slow you down there. Cause I think we want to just slow down on that experience. You come back from Toronto to France. And what, what, how did you know you're experiencing burnout? Like, can you think of a moment?

[00:14:47] Rahaf Harfoush: Let me paint you a picture: I've just come back from a successful book launch. I've just come back from like a multi-city book tour. And I decide that I immediately, for no logical reason, that I immediately need to know what I'm doing next.

What am I doing next? I don't know why I literally had not even been a week, but this was the way my brain worked.

“What's next. What's next? How do I fill the calendar? I don't know what I'm doing.”

And so I immediately start saying yes to every single project that comes my way.

I start getting tired. I start getting headaches. I start not doing things at the same speed. It starts taking me longer and longer to get stuff done. I start feeling really sad and depressed. And my health starts suffering. I'm just not feeling good. And the culmination of this delightful experience was that I am in a salon chair in Paris. I'm getting my haircut. And the hairdresser, standing behind me, he suddenly gasps!

Which is the absolute last reaction you ever want when you are in a hairdresser's chair. And I go, "What is it?"

And he says, "I don't know how to tell you this, but you have bald spots on the back of your head. Your hair is falling out."

Which apparently is caused by stress. But I don't know if you know this, but as a woman, having your hair fall out also is a stressor.

So it became this hugely continuous cycle of “I'm stressed. So my hair's falling out. So I'm stressed, so my hair is falling out.” And then I worked myself up into such a frenzy of what-is-happening-to-me, that one day I woke up and it felt like my brain had just broken.

[00:16:35] Alexandra Samuel: You’re listening to Waste No Potential, a new podcast about incredible stories of spotting untapped potential. The show is brought to you by the good folks at Traction on Demand. And I'm your host, Alexandra Samuel. If you're enjoying the podcast, don't forget to follow us wherever you're listening from. You can also find us at tractionondemand.com/podcast.

Rahaf fell victim to the big B — burnout. I spoke with Megumi again about her own thoughts on burnout and how the way of the ladybug might just help us resist that pressure to focus on output, to always be the loudest person in the room.

[00:17:18] Megumi Mizuno: I feel her pain. Stress is a big issue. Burnout is a big issue.

We, as a society, value people, like you said, outputting.

[00:17:35] Alexandra Samuel: So fill me in on this idea of “the way of the ladybug”. What's it all about?

[00:17:40] Megumi Mizuno: At one of Traction's old buildings, when we first started, there happened to be a lot of ladybugs all over the place. They didn't know why. And they started to take it as a sign that maybe you should sit back and pay attention instead of like rushing forward.

We were, you know, a startup. A very entrepreneurial CEO, and it was always like, "Okay, what's the next thing? How do we get the next contract? How do we get the next job?"

So it was always go, go, go, go, go. And then they took ladybugs as comes as a symbol of “Wait a second. Maybe we should like stop, listen, and see what else is kind of going on” and get ideas for other projects or products or things like that. Instead of saying like a 'fly on the wall', cause flies are kind of yucky, ladybugs are very precious and nice to kind of have around.

[00:18:35] Alexandra Samuel: I want to hold on to the image of those ladybugs as we return to Rahaf. To hold onto the idea that sometimes the best way you can show up in a meeting room is not as the person chairing or dominating the meeting, but as that ladybug on the wall. That's not just a matter of being effective in your meeting or at your job.

It's also key to preventing the kind of burnout or overload that Rahaf experienced. Staying healthy and balanced in a world that moves as fast as ours does? Well, it takes time and reflection. You don't have to take a sabbatical or, you know, move off the grid. You just need to integrate moments of quiet, moments of listening, into the texture of your day.

The value of that reflection is clear when you listen to Rahaf talk about her next chapter and what came from her own experience of burnout.

[00:19:36] Rahaf Harfoush: So I woke up and I sat at my desk and nothing came out of my brain. I was reaching to where ideas should be and it was just blank space. No words, no ideas, no energy. I didn't even have the energy to watch TV. I just sat on my couch. Which is huge. I just sat and my poor husband was like,"Are you okay?"

And I was like, "No, I don't think I'm okay."

Went to the doctor. He was like, "You are burned out. Like you need to rest because you're driving your body to a state of chronic fatigue. And if you don't start recovering, you're going to actually start having some massive, more long-term issues."

Like, you know, blood pressure, stress, adrenaline, all of that stuff. So it took me months to crawl out of that hole. And as I crawled out of that hole, I kept wondering why this had happened to me.

You know, I wasn't somebody who didn't know the benefits of rest, who didn't know the benefits of taking breaks. And yet, despite knowing better, I didn't do better. And so that really started kind of niggling a little bit at my researcher's brain. And then I started talking to people and I asked them,"Have you ever found yourself in the situation where you are making yourself sick, even though you knew better?" That was the key. Like you had the— it wasn't a lack of information. And the more I started hearing these recurring stories, the more I realized that there was something here that was really interesting. I wanted to know 'why'.

[00:21:00] Alexandra Samuel: It's the research that became the basis for her next book, “Hustle and Float”. And it's a book that was informed by her own effort to reprogram, to work at a different pace, in a different style for the next three years.

[00:21:15] Rahaf Harfoush: And so “Hustle and Float” ended up being my third book. It's reclaiming your creativity in a world obsessed with work, and it was trying to reframe and trying to at least show people that so much of our ideas about work and about success and about hustle are like embedded in our brains. And were told to us. And are actually based on lies.

So I wanted to create an alternative for people so that they could tell themselves a different story. One where maybe they could be successful without having their hair fall out in a hairdresser’s chair.

And so we've internalized this idea that we are solely responsible for our success, very individualistic approach to success. That we're the only— and the only thing that can fix it is more effort. And we think more effort equals more success. Now, the problem with that is that the success equation, as I call it, isn’t success equals hard work. It's success equals hard work, okay, and the family you were born to, access to healthcare, access to education, inherited wealth, timing, luck.

Like I look at my own career and it's very, very clear to me. Yes, I worked hard, okay. But it's very clear to me the role that serendipity played, the role that privilege of living in a country like Canada, where education and healthcare are accessible and affordable played. It's like serendipity and luck that I had parents who supported me going to school. Like there are all these different elements and yet we ignore all those elements. And we say that if we are not struggling and sacrificing and signaling to each other, that's the most important thing, if we're not signaling and showing each other “I'm working so hard. I'm so busy. Look, I'm killing myself. My health is failing as a show of how devoted I am to my work” that it must mean that we're not deserving of that success. So we internalize all of that guilt. And then what ends up happening, and I don't know you tell me how you feel about this, what ends up happening is you don't even feel comfortable taking a break.

You can't even let yourself rest because you're like, “I'm not doing anything”. And the worst part, like the part that enrages me about this is that instead of teaching people to pay attention to their, the signs of their body failing them, we get told that's a badge of honour.

[00:23:30] Alexandra Samuel: Looking at our overclocked work culture took Rahaf back to a pivotal phase in the development of the modern workplace. You know, work, as we know, it really hasn't been around that long, not even 300 years.

Before that people mostly supported themselves with farming, or maybe you have the occasional craftsmen or blacksmith. Fundamentally, production was something you did on your own clock as the work needed to be done.

Then the Industrial Revolution comes along and suddenly you have industrialists who are investing piles of money to set up factories. They need people to work the machinery. So they need to know when those people are going to show up and leave. And they need to know that they're turning the most profit from every gear, making the most money from every pair of hands.

And that brings about a new practice that's called 'scientific management'. It was this whole field that emerged in the late 19th century that focused on maximizing the output of every single hour a factory is running, every hour you're paying wages to those workers. And that's when we see the invention of assembly lines, which are really focused on maximizing output by turning people into single task widgets. Fast forward to the present, and maybe we're no longer sweating in a brick factory, but we're still walled in by these outdated ideas about productivity and output.

[00:24:59] Rahaf Harfoush: And so all these systems say that you show up every single day at the same level of energy in the same way, regardless of the season, regardless of the day of the week, regardless of the hour of the day. And then we wonder why burnout is on the rise, depression is on the rise. It's clearly there. So the story that we're telling is poisoning us, and yet we're glorifying it nonstop.

But what I've also seen is what happened when companies like Netflix, for example, tried to put into place unlimited, paid vacation days and people weren't taking advantage of those paid vacation days.

So there's a part that the organization has to do, which is an understanding that the systems that they're putting in place are not designed to improve the performance of strategic thinking, innovation, and creativity, which are three of the most important skillsets that we need in today's knowledge economy. But two, it's also to realize that we as employees have been brainwashed and workers in general have been brainwashed by this entire, what I call, “productivity propaganda”.

So in some cases we will be our own worst bosses. We will prevent ourselves from resting, from taking vacation, because it's not actually about the work. It's about the perception of struggle and sacrifice. It's about the perception of busy-ness. Every CEO, I bet, would consider themselves to be an evidence-based leader, right? “I make decisions based on data. I use data to make decisions.”

And yet what we have seen over the last two years is that countries around the world — Iceland, New Zealand, Portugal, the UK — have created pilots for four day work weeks. The data unequivocally has said that this increases morale, boosts productivity, and it actually doesn't have a loss in output. Like people are happier and they're doing the same amount of work if not more, they're just happier.

And yet, every single one of these evidence-based leaders, and I have spoken to them, when you say, “Here's the data!”, their response, and their resistance has nothing to do with data. And it has to do with the fundamental embedded belief systems that they have about what it takes to be successful. And that's why this is such a complicated problem to fix. It's not a data problem. It's a belief problem.

And what I have learned is that we have to reframe high performance to understand that not just rest or intentional recovery, but pausing and periods of de-stimulation and periods of quiet reflection are also important.

And if I put on my digital anthropology hat, I can ask you “Think about when, in your day, you're not being stimulated by information?” So, you know, and for some people it's even like at the gym, they're listening to a podcast, they've got music on in the background, they've got notifications, they play games, they've got social media, they've got emails, they've got a family WhatsApp group, they're reading books, they're watching YouTube.

So I believe that too many people have just let themselves be controlled by social media instead of the other way around. I'll give you an example: read receipts. Why? Why do read receipts exist? Why is it important for the other person to know those double blue check marks on WhatsApp to let somebody know that you have read their message?

There's absolutely zero— all you need to know is that your message has been delivered. That is the only thing that you should know. My message was successfully delivered. Every single minute of the day we are getting information all the time. In “Hustle and Float”, I interviewed neurologists and brain imaging experts, and they say our brain was not meant to do these types of activities nonstop. So you would actually benefit more if you just plotted in even 15 minutes of de-stimulation into your day, that would actually make you more effective.

[00:28:42] Alexandra Samuel: Updating our measures of success. Rethinking the whole idea of productivity.

It's the only way to avoid being trapped in an output-focused model that really belongs to a previous era of work. It's the thinking from that old era that keeps us working 40, 50, 60 hours a week. Even if we're getting more done in five hours at home, than we could in 10 hours at the office. Even if study after study shows that a four day workweek can actually yield better results for both employer and employee. But it often takes an experience of burnout, like what Rahaf went through, to get people to step back and ask hard questions. Once you start asking those questions, well, that's when it's time to quiet down, try the way of the ladybug, and listen for some new answers.

[00:29:39] Rahaf Harfoush: I can tell you that I worked with a medium-sized nonprofit that was focused in the arts space, arts consulting. And what they did was an entire workshop about trying to understand what people's work beliefs were. What are their work stories? What's this work devotion, how does work devotion show up in the organization? And one of the things that they started doing was one, they started giving people an added day off every single month. This is a US-based company, so that's a big deal. And the other thing that they did was that they gave everybody a week off as a way to recharge. And this is a policy that's now also been applied by LinkedIn, and by Microsoft, and by Bumble.

I've always thought that we're forcing humans to fit into systems built for machines. And as humans, we need to design systems that are built for humans. And so that is what I'm trying to do. And I've been testing it with all sorts of people around the world.

And the amazing thing is that I was right in the sense that I've sent it out to you say 15 people and I've received 15 different ways that people are using the system to make it work for them. And then it kind of all clicked. It all made sense. It's like, well, of course you need your own system. You're unique. You're the one who knows what's best for you. So why are we trying to fit ourselves into someone else's morning routine or someone else's productivity hack when you know what's best for you? So you should build a system that's for you by you.

[00:31:04] Alexandra Samuel: Today, my guests were digital anthropologist and author of “Hustle and Float” Rahaf Harfoush, and Megumi Mizuno, Chief of Staff for Traction on Demand. I'm Alexandra Samuel, and this is Waste No Potential, brought to you by Traction on Demand with production support from JAR audio.

When do we risk wasting potential?

And when do we find a way to seize it, even in unexpected places. For the inspiring people I've spoken with throughout this podcast, and in my own career, the path to potential comes through purpose, from the desire to have a positive impact on the world. But how do you tune into that inner voice that's urging you to think bigger? To follow your most generous impulses?

How do we commit to doing the work that can transform not only our careers, but our communities? Join me on our next episode when we're going to speak with a famous restaurateur, who's going to share the recipe for doing well by doing good.

Follow us on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your shows. Until then, thanks for listening.

More potential awaits.