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WASTE NO POTENTIAL - EPISODE 10

Cultivate the Habit of Good.

Good energy begets good energy. A sudden turn of events had Mark Brand searching for meaning — and it took giving back to find his true purpose.

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Cultivate the Habit of Good.

When you have nothing, you appreciate everything.

Mark Brand would know. He had everything going for him: successful careers as a DJ and chef, a home, a loving partner. He was living the dream. But when a medical condition dashed his chances of staying in his adopted country of Australia, he was forced to leave everything behind and come back to Canada, the place he was born. It became a rebirth.

Even though life had taken a turn, Brand focused on what he knew he was good at — and good things started happening. Accomplished in the food and beverage industry, he opened his first restaurant in Vancouver with humble financial investment but a ton of heart and proceeded to win accolades ahead of established restaurant empires. Brand was witnessing how good energy begets good energy, like an exponential algorithm of positivity, and that by connecting and contributing he could facilitate change. Soon, it would become his mission.

Ignited by the notorious mistreatment of residents of Vancouver’s downtown eastside, Brand’s fiery devotion has made him one of the best examples of how social entrepreneurship can respectfully and effectively lift marginalized communities. He is the founder of A Better Life Foundation, an organization dedicated to using food as a catalyst to enrich, employ and empower people who need it most.

Hear how Mark Brand and Michelle Malpass, VP of Community at Traction on Demand, focus on making a habit of doing good to give everyone a chance to nourish their full potential.

Highlights

  • 3:57 "Mark Brand on mentors, blackout airports, and DJ’s ”
  • 11:52 “How to cultivate the habit of good with Michelle Malpass’"
  • 19:53 “One stroll through Vancouver that changed Mark's life forever."

Transcript

[00:00:00] Alexandra Samuel: What is the recipe for doing good? Is it a sprinkle of good intentions? A splash of strategic thinking? Maybe a hefty portion of hard work? And how do you know if your recipe is successful? How do you know if you're having the impact you intended, or if your good intentions are going to fizzle? Like cooking, every little ingredient we add can be the secret to an extraordinary result or the mistake that consigns the whole dish to the compost bin.

[00:00:44] Just because our intentions are good, doesn’t mean we'll have the impact we desire.

[00:00:49] Mark Brand: Another person rides in on their chariot and says, “I'm going to fix this thing or do this thing”, and then when it gets hard, they ride straight out and pretend it never happened. I watch it happen literally every day.

[00:01:00] Alexandra Samuel: So what do we need to cultivate to truly do right by those around us? To cultivate that habit of good?

[00:01:13] You're listening to Waste No Potential, and I'm your host Alexandra Samuel. Today, we're going to talk about what it means to cultivate the habit of doing good. It's a vision that always makes me think about the fable of stone soup.

[00:01:28] You know, the story where some hungry travelers arrive in a village and boil a pot of water that contains nothing but a few stones.

[00:01:37] The villagers are so fascinated by the idea of stone soup that they gather around the travelers and, before you know it, they've been coaxed into pitching in a carrot here and onion there and the stone soup has become a rich stew that feeds not just the travelers, but the whole village.

[00:01:56] After all, life is full of invitations like those legendary travelers extended. Invitations to connect and contribute. Yet we're often so busy or overwhelmed that we turn away or put it off for next time. And I should know, because I confess, I often pass on the opportunity to do good. Even when it doesn't ask a whole lot of me. Every single time we do that we are wasting potential.

[00:02:29] We're wasting the potential of the people or organizations that could have a real impact if we just lent a helping hand. And today you're going to meet someone who has made cultivating the habit of good into a way of life.

[00:02:45] Mark Brand, who has not only started many successful restaurants, but is also the founder of a Better Life Foundation.

[00:02:54] Can you tell us a little bit about what the Better Life Foundation does?

[00:02:58] Mark Brand: Yeah, absolutely. It's a really simple equation. A Better Life Foundation feeds, trains, and employs people who are coming out of the margin who typically have barriers to employment. And what I mean by that is coming out of recidivism, coming out of street entrenchment, having a physical or mental diversability. And we've worked with those systems since 2013 and put about three and a half million meals into SRO, which is single room occupancy, hotel or shelter, employing the same people who are living in those spaces.

[00:03:31] Alexandra Samuel: Through the Better Life Foundation, Mark has created a stone soup moment for a whole lot of people. But his own life is also a great example of how different ingredients can come together to make a kind of magic.

[00:03:45] Let's actually start with your, the food side of your existence. I mean, tell us who you were as a kid and the role that food played in your childhood.

[00:03:55] Mark Brand: Sure. Yeah. Very graceful mentor and aunt, who is a— like most of my family on my mother's side where I grew up in Nova Scotia, came from poverty and worked in service and a really, really good scratch cook. So I started following her at about nine years old. That's where I wanted to be because that's where I thought the magic happened.

[00:04:16] And at 14, I got a job at a pizza shop to be the dishwasher. Lied about my age, got the gig. And then day three, I said, "You need to teach me how to make the dough. I need to learn." And so they let me get my hands in it. And five ingredients later, I knew how to make pizza.

[00:04:33] And I was blown away. I was like, this is absolute magic. So as soon as that happened, it was game over for me.

[00:04:41] Alexandra Samuel: Mark started life in Canada's Maritimes. But when he was still quite young, his father's work took them to Lagos, Nigeria.

[00:04:49] Mark Brand: Yes, so when I was in my teenage years, my dad got transferred to Lagos first and then Port Harcourt and Warri. And I would spend every moment I could there with him. Dropping into Nineties’ Nigeria as a kid who sure was around a lot of poverty in the Maritimes, but not like that. The first time I touched down the airport, you know, there's no cell phones. This is pre-cellphone and pre-internet. So my dad being like on the phone, "Hey, I'm sending you via mail, this amount of money to dash and/or bribe the person at customs to make sure that you get through clearly."

[00:05:23] And I'm laughing. I'm like, I'll be fine, I’ve traveled before. And I touched down and the airport’s entire power at Lagos airport is out. There's no power. And there's just dudes with full machine guns everywhere. And it's, you know, 45 degrees Celsius with a hundred percent humidity and there's dogs everywhere looking for drugs.

[00:05:45] And I was shocked.

[00:05:47] And I had the money, I'm fumbling for it, and people are yelling and come on and I got to the other side and got in the car and I can remember the drive to the Sheraton, which was in a compound. A barbed wire, like military surrounded compound and being like, "Where are we?" And then inside the Sheraton, it was like paradise, right?

[00:06:08] And so that was the juxtaposition. I spent that Christmas in Abuja, which was the capital at the time. And I'd seen Nigeria proper at that time, I'd been going into do shopping in the markets, et cetera. And it was wild, but going to a Abuja which was the city they literally paved with gold for anybody to come visit Nigeria and see, so they didn't see the other portion of it.

[00:06:32] And that is an analogy that exists in pretty much every major city in the Western world now. So yeah, Nigeria was my critical eyeopening to there's a whole world out there that none of us really genuinely know about at this point.

[00:06:48] Alexandra Samuel: Nigeria exposed Mark to new extremes in human experience. On the one hand, he saw the reality of an unpredictable, developing country and on the other, he saw how food and community brought people together, creating a space of safety and belonging.

[00:07:09] So that was one of those first moments. One of the first ingredients Mark picked up on his journey. The next one came after moving to Australia.

[00:07:22] Mark Brand: We moved over to Melbourne, Australia, when I was just turning 20 and I worked in any job that they would give me. So finally got a job at a Greek restaurant, and then I worked with and for Greeks for a solid three years up and down the Great Ocean Road.

[00:07:38] And one of my fondest memories is an illegal activity, which I didn't know was illegal! I wasn't taught it was illegal to be fair, which was getting abalone in Lorne, Australia. So we take orange bags, mesh bags, and a Phillips head screwdriver, and then we would snorkel and pull abalone off.

[00:07:55] And we would literally have it on the menu that night for the tourists who are coming from Asia. And so I learned traditional racks of lamb. I learned traditional pickled octopus. I learned all of the real Greek food the real way — to do like a lemon rosemary herb chicken and all of the different desserts.

[00:08:14] And that was my twenties. Like they were all there. And fell in love in my mid twenties with an incredible woman from Indonesia. And her and I got married. Had a beautiful home. I was a working DJ, so I had my dream life. I was playing records for a living. I'd hit the top of the pyramid of service. Get to be the guy who makes everybody happy and also work with all my heroes. I toured with Cypress Hill, with Public Enemy, with Gang Starr, got to open for everyone.

[00:08:38] Had radio shows, had all my nights in Sydney and Melbourne, like back and forth. And it was it. I'd achieved every dream that I'd had.

[00:08:47] Alexandra Samuel: Through the years, Mark built what seemed to him like the perfect life. A home, a marriage, a successful career as a DJ built around his love of music.

[00:09:01] And then it all went sideways…

[00:09:04] Mark Brand: But I got diagnosed with polycystic kidney disease when I was going for my permanent residency. And I went to do my scans and I already felt something was wrong. And it's a hereditary disease that my mom, my aunt who passed, passed from it, my grandfather, my real grandfather, who I never met, passed from it.

[00:09:23] And when they were doing the scan, they're rolling it. And I saw the woman's face react. And I was like, “Oh, okay. I know what that is.” And so she's not allowed to obviously share results, but two weeks later I get the phone call and the phone call was "Mr. Brand. We'd like to see you in our office. "And so went to have the conversation.

[00:09:42] The conversation went, "You have two choices: one is sign off on your medical rights for the rest of your life and we'll give you your residency," which means that I would have to pay private for every single thing that ever happened to me forever. And this is a million dollar disease plus plus. "Or two, you can leave."

[00:09:59] And so there was no option C, which I immediately asked for. "I was like, cool. What's in between?" They're like, "There isn't anything."

[00:10:05] So, um, lost my shirt, my house, um, pretty much had to get rid of everything and came back to Canada and was trying to figure out where to be.

[00:10:25] Alexandra Samuel: You're listening to Waste No Potential, a new podcast about incredible stories of spotting untapped potential. The show is brought to you by the good folks at Traction on Demand, and I'm your host Alexandra Samuel. If you're enjoying the podcast, don't forget to follow us wherever you're listening. You can also find us at tractionondemand.com/podcast.

[00:10:51] Mark was in a tough spot after returning to Canada. His beautiful life had been upended. But that topsy-turvy moment also set him up to see new opportunity, new kinds of potential. That's exactly what's so magic about stone soup, about being brave enough to start from nothing and invite others to pitch in. But also open enough to hear that invitation and to warm yourself on the broth of human connection.

[00:11:22] When we tap into that instinct for generosity we help others, but we also tap into our own deeper potential. That's why I was so curious to talk with Michelle Malpass of Traction on Demand and find out what the company means by this phrase, 'cultivate the habit of good'.

[00:11:41] Let's talk about this idea of cultivating the habit of good. What does that mean to you and what does it mean to Traction?

[00:11:47] Michelle Malpass: When I think about cultivating the habit of good it’s the meaning of life is to find your gift, and the purpose of life is to give it away.

[00:11:55] And for me, you can look at that from two perspectives. You can look at it from a company perspective. But when you think about on a personal level, every person has a gift and it doesn't have to be something professional, right?

[00:12:07] It could be their humour, or how they lead, it could be bringing joy through music or cooking, whatever that is. And so when I think about cultivating the habit of good, it's how you make people feel around you. It's how you show up for your community and your neighbours and your coworkers, or even how you show up as a parent and what you're teaching them.

[00:12:26] Yeah, so I really feel that for me, that's the most important part of cultivating the habit of good is how we treat each other.

[00:12:35] Alexandra Samuel: Michelle Malpass made that discovery on her own path to cultivating the habit of good.

[00:12:40] Michelle Malpass: I did a degree in Communications at Simon Fraser University and I minored in Sociology and International Development.

[00:12:47] I remember it, it was in my third year. And I wrote a paper on sweatshop labour for an International Development course I had. And I remember at the time, you know, researching there and I felt sad that there was so many challenges that people there faced. It was one of those things where, okay, I felt an emotion, I wrote it, but then, of course, you move on to the next paper and then you move on to the next course. And it was a little bit forgotten.

[00:13:11] So if you fast forward two years from that, after I graduated university, I spent four months traveling Central America. And I remember being on a bus in Honduras and it was a really long, overnight bus. And it was about seven o'clock at night, it was raining and it was dark. And we're on this highway and it was lined with school buses with thousands of people just piling in and out of these buses. And they are pouring out of these massive buildings and it went on for kilometers and kilometers. And it hit me in that moment that we're just outside of Tegucigalpa, which is the capital of Honduras and that's where a lot of these massive maquiladoras are. And the information from my paper just came flooding back. And I was sitting there by myself in this bus and I started to cry. And I was seeing firsthand what I had researched in that paper and knowing the challenges they face. And I sat there thinking, you know, what we do back home matters and the choices and action we make really matter.

[00:14:08] And I made a resolve on that bus that my career will be making the world better. And so after that I got home and the next 20 years of my career have been in supporting the non-profit sector. I mean, my first job was at the Intercultural Association of Greater Victoria and then on to the Take a Hike Youth at Risk Foundation as the Executive Director all before I started social impact at Traction. So it's been quite the journey, for sure.

[00:14:34] And I think back about that experience I had on that bus and that it gave me clarity for what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. What I found really valuable is that it's basically the intersection of education and travel that was the key there. Because I think about if I had traveled without having written that paper, I would have driven right through that, um, those sweatshops and never had a second thought about it.

[00:14:59] And I, on the other side had I had my education without traveling, I would not have had that real life moment. So I think the combination of education and travel is to me what makes is the most impactful thing and sort of ties back to really a life changing moment that wouldn't have happened had I just done my education or just traveled.

[00:15:17] So that's a combination I really truly believe in.

[00:15:22] Alexandra Samuel: That's the joy and satisfaction of doing good. Which is exactly what Mark Brand found once he started cooking. Quite literally.

[00:15:31] Mark Brand: You know, I wasn't going to go back to the Maritimes. I love people there. I love going there, but went to Toronto and it wasn't for me.

[00:15:37] And I wasn't for it at the time. I love it now. And toured all the way across and came to Vancouver. And it was like, “This is where I'm supposed to be.” And I just felt it in the entirety of my body. And it made zero sense, no logical sense whatsoever, but I knew that that's where I was supposed to be. And so my first DJ gig, I got $23 and a pint. I was like, that's not going to buy me a house.

[00:15:59] I'd started businesses since I was a kid. You know, I was hustling chocolate bars at school. I ran businesses in Melbourne that were promotional and nights. So I knew how to run business. That part was easy. And just putting together all the different things that I was already working in.

[00:16:15] And, you know, the conversations I was having with friends who were just really interested in doing that. And when we opened our first restaurant I had none of the real hard skills to do that particular job aside from, you know, the service side.

[00:16:32] Alexandra Samuel: That's when Mark opened his first restaurant, Boneta.

[00:16:36] Mark Brand: I could do stuff in the kitchen. I could do stuff in pastry, which I had to do for three months. I could run the bar program on the floor. Boneta was our first. We opened it for $89,000. We won design of the year, best restaurant, best bar, best service, best lounge, where the most award-winning restaurant in Canada that year. And when we accepted Design of the Year from Van Mag, the runner up was in the front row, which was The Shore Club.

[00:16:58] Which is the owners of the Keg, the Aisenstats. And I looked down and I said, “I'm pretty sure the carpet for the Shore Club,” which was a runner up, “was worth more than my entire restaurant.” And we all had a big laugh because there was a change in perception of who could access opening a restaurant — who should access opening a restaurant or a bar or a community space — and who couldn't.

[00:17:21] Alexandra Samuel: Mark found his next venture in a classic Vancouver butcher shop and diner called Save on Meats, which was owned by Al DesLauriers since 1957.

[00:17:32] Mark Brand: This young guy who was a server's assistant, who's still a friend of mine to this day was like, we gotta go eat this bison burger, this Buffalo burger at Save on Meats.

[00:17:39] And I was like, "No dog, I’m good on that."

[00:17:42] And he's like, "You have to come with me at $6. It's crazy. You’ve got to come."

[00:17:46] And I walked in that place and immediately like met Al and was so struck by his generosity, by his kindness, by the space being unlike anything in Vancouver. There was no way for other people to access this kind of level of food at this little money.

[00:18:02] And I sat down at that diner counter and that was it for me. I was sold. I was like, I'm at this counter all the time. When I opened my first restaurant Boneta, we did the press shots there with me cooking behind the diner counter. A few years later I stood across the street where Country Music Time Pub is and some dear friends, and it was like one day, I'm going to own that space.

[00:18:21] And Al came to me and said, "I won't sell the building unless somebody agrees to take over the butcher shop."

[00:18:27] And I said, "Nobody's that stupid.”

[00:18:30] And he said, "I've got some ideas..."

[00:18:33] And that was the biggest project and continues to be the biggest project in my life, ten years later.

[00:18:38] Alexandra Samuel: Mark took over Save on Meats, a beloved butcher and diner, right in the heart of Vancouver's Downtown Eastside.

[00:18:45] If ‘downtown’ has you picturing big glass office towers, sidewalks full of suited business people, well, think again. Vancouver's Downtown Eastside is a neighbourhood with a very rich history and an incredible sense of community, but it is also home to a lot of profound challenges from poverty, to addiction, and street entrenchment. Just going to work at Save on Meats every day meant passing people in crisis. But Mark wasn't one to ignore the struggle he was seeing. He wanted to serve the community he was in and to make his restaurant a place where people could go to for a nice hot sandwich at an affordable price.

[00:19:28] So he started initiatives like a token program that let Save on Meats’ customers buy meal tokens. If you wanted to help someone out on the street, you could give them a token to trade in for a fresh sandwich. And he hired people who are actually from the Downtown Eastside community to come and work in the restaurant.

[00:19:47] As much as he committed to the neighbourhood, he could still be surprised and moved by what he encountered on the street.

[00:19:55] Mark Brand: Yeah, Football Mike.

[00:19:57] People who were in Gastown in the Downtown Eastside around that time would know him as 'Football Mike' affectionately. Because he threw a football off a wall. I saw him every single day.

[00:20:06] Like he literally cleaned the streets on the corner by Boneta and I would walk by him every day. And I was nervous about him. I was just like, who is this cat? He's in a enigma. And I walked out of my house one day and he was laying down on cardboard, like covered in snow, on one of our rare Vancouver snowy days.

[00:20:22] And I could identify him because of his outfit. He looked like Mick Jagger. And I was like, “Oh, is this guy dead?” And I just felt a wave sort of surge up into my chest and my stomach and my throat. I was like, you need to go there right now.

[00:20:36] So I walked across the street and I kneel down. I was like, ah, he's not breathing. And I was like, what do you do? And so I was like, "Hey man, are you okay?!”

[00:20:46] And he opened his eyes and he kinked up and he looked straight up at me, stared at me dead in the eyes and went, "No." And sort of gestured to himself, like, 'obviously I'm not okay.' So he stepped into Boneta with me that morning. And we discussed what had happened to his situation and he was living in an SRO and it got infected with bed bugs, as they often do.

[00:21:07] And he has OCD, ADHD, Asperger’s, and medicated with heroin and methamphetamines. So he couldn't stay. And I was like, “Cool, we can find you another place. I donate to all kinds of these different organizations, let me make some phone calls."

[00:21:23] And he was like, "Okay."

[00:21:24] And I was like,"We can go get your stuff."

[00:21:26] And he was like, "No, we can't. My stuff's not there."

[00:21:30] I was like, “Cool, we can get you new stuff. Like it's not a big deal. Army Navy is across the street. We can go get your work boots and jackets or whatever you need."

[00:21:35] And he still looked super upset and I pushed him on it. I was like, "Hey man, you know, stuff is just stuff."

[00:21:41] And he was like, "Yeah, they incinerated all my stuff because of contamination and bedbugs. And yeah, we can get me new stuff, but all the pictures of my family were in there."

[00:21:52] And that was kind of it for me. That was the moment. Like if people were like, “When did you have a lightning bolt?” The level of anger that coursed through my body that we are in Canada and this was a thing. It was just pure outrage.

[00:22:09] And Mike and I started working together the next day and he worked for me for every day up until about four years ago where he announced his retirement to me. He helped me build every single business, demo every single business, put everything together. He scrubbed every brick on the walls of Save on Meats individually with a toothbrush over two months and sealed them. He worked on himself. He worked with us. He reconnected with his whole family. He became an amazing grandfather and just an amazing human. He's my, my rock.

[00:22:41] Alexandra Samuel: Connecting with Mike was like a call for Mark to take his service to a new level, to ask how he could do even more and maybe even reach beyond the Downtown Eastside. How could he make a difference? His first clue was wafting from one of the kitchens of his restaurant.

[00:22:59] Mark Brand: And then I rediscovered cooking for myself after realizing I didn't like being a businessman as much. So I went back into the kitchen and nobody knew me as a chef at all. And I started leading dinners to build more advocates and meet people from the neighbourhood. And from there, I got known for doing those dinners. I started doing them stateside for Homegirl Industries. So Homeboy and Homegirl Industries are run by Father Greg and two of the women from Homegirl who were born into gang violence and into gang life had escaped it. And we cooked together and we facilitated some things.

[00:23:36] One of those exercises is 'I See You', which I run at dinners where you put your hand on the shoulder of an individual you've never met and tell them what you see in a stream of consciousness. You just let it go. And that deeply affected one of the guests who was like, "I am running this thing and I would really like you to consider getting involved."

[00:23:55] I said, “Sure, what does it entail?" And they told me about it, to be the Executive Chef of The Laudato Sì Challenge for the Vatican, which is the climate change challenge. Now I was like, "Does the Catholic Church know that I'm not Catholic?!”

[00:24:09] And they were like, "It doesn't matter. Your work around homelessness and poverty and your true work in it, not just talking about it, but actually doing it, sets you apart."

[00:24:18] And I did a dinner for 400 there in Rome, and really built that dinner around the experience of a shared meal around climate. What does it actually mean to eat sustainably? Over 40% of our climate issues are from food production and food consumption and food waste.

[00:24:36] And so I built the dinner around that, instead of around opulence. And it went extremely well. And I was allowed to use the dais to talk about poverty and street entrenchment and mental illness, which they didn't expect me to talk about. And when I did, and with 400 of the most powerful people in the world, it really set me up. So it led to me being the Executive Chef for a year at the American Refugee Committee. And instead of your rubber chicken balls, I was doing all sorts of fun stuff with the diaspora of the people we served. Everywhere. From Uganda to Vietnam and using food as a conduit to discuss advocacy.

[00:25:13] Alexandra Samuel: Mark was now making stone soup on the world stage. And he'd done it by starting from his own unique mix of ingredients, his own unique mix of experiences. As a businessman, a cook, a public speaker and even as a DJ, he harnessed all of them. So as you think about how to cultivate your own habit of good, think about that metaphor of stone soup, about how you can invite people to join together. Or perhaps listen for the invitation to throw your own ingredients into someone else's pot.

[00:25:51] What are the values, what are the practices that you hold onto so that you actually maximize your impact and feel like your energy is being focused in a way that delivers real outcomes to people?

[00:26:05] Mark Brand: Yeah, a hundred percent. What a beautiful question to finish with.

[00:26:08] I convene dinners, like the ones we've discussed, in the biggest markets of the biggest B to B conversations, where the work and the things that I advocate for are centered. That is putting them in front of this work. And then having them also access the street level work and doing it, not just talking about it, but literally being in those spaces.

[00:26:30] And then long-term commitment. Because I can't show up to a community and say, “We're going to create this new program for this women's shelter for 87 meals twice a day, every single day, scratch-made.” The cost on that is hundreds of thousands of dollars. So it used to be like, "Hey chef, can I come down and make some sandwiches with you and bring my kids so they can see what's going on?"

[00:26:49] "No, no, you can't. You can make some sandwiches at home and go do that."

[00:26:54] But I think it's when you want to actually help people out, do your research. What's a skill you bring that nobody else brings? How much time do you have every month for a bunch of years that you can dedicate? How much resource do you have?

[00:27:09] Can you make some donations to go along with that? You expect to just show up and that's going to be enough? Put some money behind it! I'm going to donate a thousand bucks a year and I would like to volunteer once a month, if that's possible. I have Tuesdays and Thursdays from 4:00 to 6:00 PM. I'm an excellent basketball coach, piano teacher, accountant, web designer, cook.

[00:27:27] I can do any of those things. Please put me in where you see fit. Respect people, respect their time, respect their bandwidth. And I say that also to say that you're going to show up for stuff that you're good at way more than you're going to show up for stuff that you don't know how to do.

[00:27:50] Alexandra Samuel: Today, my guests were Mark Brand from A Better Life Foundation and Michelle Malpass, Vice President of Community at Traction on Demand.

[00:27:59] How do you know when something is perfect enough? That is, how do you escape from the trap of perfectionism and actually find the courage to put something out in the world?

[00:28:10] That's the subject of our next episode, when I'll talk with Ken Davenport, the Broadway producer behind hits like Kinky Boots and Once On This Island. Join us for a masterclass in taking the risk to follow your dreams and recognizing when something is perfect enough.

[00:28:28] I'm Alexandra Samuel and this is Waste No Potential, brought to you by Traction on Demand with production support from JAR Audio.

[00:28:36] If you like the show, follow us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your shows. And maybe even tell a friend about us too. Until then, thanks for listening.

More potential awaits.